I fucking hate spending money to see a show and not being able to hear shit cause there is a shitty PA or no PA or and idiot running it.

What do you guys think about sound at local shows?

Important?
Not important?
Do you wish there was more than just vox miced up?
Stage monitors? do you need them? are they ever loud enough? or are they for pussies?
Sound guy with full PA or whoever with the practice space PA?
Full drum mics setup?
Subwoofers?
are there things or situations you as a performing musician hate at certain halls/clubs/venues?
Do you think a full PA at a hall is overkill or a welcomed change?

Im trying to get some feed back for potentially doing live sound at some shows and maybe the promoter booking your next show will take some of these things into consideration.

if a band can't play without monitors they suck!

the sound depends on the size of the place i guess...small halls you can get away with just vox and kick drum, but once you get past the size of the grafton VFW you really do need subs and drums fully mic'd

Sound sucks at local shows more often than not, either because the person on the sound board isn't a musician, they don't understand the equipment they're using, or they just don't give a shit. It's unfortunate, because sound at local shows is very important; the best band can sound like shit with poor sound.

Only micing the vocals just doesn't cut it for metal, no matter how small the room is. Stage monitors aren't necessary if there are mains behind the band, but if the main PA speakers are all in front of the band (which is the case 99% of the time), monitors are very important, particularly in metal.

Full drum mics are usually only necessary for metal bands in huge rooms; in medium and small rooms they can do more harm than good unless you really mix them in sparingly. (Although to some degree this depends on how loud the drummer plays, and how loud their kit is -but I'd say at least 70-80% of metal drummers don't need more than their kick drum miced unless they're playing a huge room.)

However, a kick drum mic and guitar mics are always necessary for a metal band to sound professional in any room, and so are subwoofers. When my band shows up to a gig and that stuff isn't there, it's always a big disappointment.

Considering that 9 out of 10 shows I go to sound like shit and 9 out of 10 users of this message board play these shows in question, I'm sure someone else has something to add?

a full PA with everything miced and loud working monitors for drums and vocals would be spectacular. i HATE playing when i cant hear anything. there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to quality sound. the better the monitors the tighter the band will play. alot of places are acoustically challenged, but with a loud clear PA it will do nothing but add to it. i wish we had one, but we are all poor. i for one am all for quality sound.

humor me.

music is gay.

i like it better with just the vocals and bass drum micd at a small place. when sound guys get involved shit gets messed up.

.

another big thing no one really thinks of is the actual sound coming out of the amps...i've noticed a lot of times where my amp sounds mint when i'm right next to it but then i move in front to check the sound and it's WAY louder than i had thought

Bands need to ask the crowd more. i always love it when i'm at a show and the bands like "how's it sound out there?" and someone in the crowd yells "More guitar!" and the guitarist turns up and then the band sounds better the whole rest of the set. It just makes it seem more homely and intimate. Gives ya a warm fuzzy feeling inside, ya know?

Totally, dude, I always want to hear the crowd's opinion while I'm up there. I HATE it when I play a show with an independent monitor mix, and then I get off stage and people are like "the guitar wasn't loud enough". I just want to shake them and yell "TELL ME WHILE I'M UP THERE!" That way, I can at least turn up my half stack, even if the soundguy has down-syndrome.

At smaller places it's harder to have bad sound because nothing is micced beyond vocals and maybe kick. If your drummer doesnt play like a pussy and the guitarists and bassists turn up to the correct volume (or down if need be) you sound fine.

At other places that mic everything, you can get someone who sucks at sound for metal and they mess it up. I remember a show at the middle east, I think Bane of Existence played, and there was a feminist hippy doing sound who obviously did a piss poor job on purpose and the mix was awful.

Joe/NotCommon said:


Not always. My drummer plays loud as fuck, and my entire rhythm guitar tone is based on being very atmospheric (in otherwords, if I had a "presence" knob, it would be most of the way down; that's just how I like my tone and our band doesn't sound the same without it), so unless there's a reasonable effort to mic the guitar, it's not going to cut through (unless I put my stack in front of my drummer, but then he can't hear me). Our performance last year at Dee's Dee's should have proven this.

Maybe we're an exception, though...

Well I should have also said in rooms bands are familiar with. Alot of bands from the boston area play obriens and are use to it so they know what they need to do. You guys hadn't played at DeeDees before that I was aware of.

That's true.

ShadowSD said:

You should consider getting a monitor specifically for the drummer to use.
That's what we do, and I'd say it helps. If the drummer knows what's happening, then everyone else can follow. its more important to hear the drums than it is to hear another guitar or even the bass, for example

at deedees its good to point the amps in towards the band. i liked it better that way

also for live purposes...guitarists...turn down your gain!!!

I think some compression would probably fix everything, and some less gain like Cav said. It's all about compression and gain.
Sacreligion sounds terrible on every sound system, by the way.

I been reading alot about gain structure. Lots to think about from the original sound source - mic - gain - eq - compression - effects - channel fader - sub group - main output - and any limiters and EQ's post main output beofre the FOH or monitors.

it's all about maximum gain before clipping to achieve dynamics
shadow no offense that is why your sound system always sounds muffled
because you turn your power amp all the way up and use your channel gain's to control volume before feedback. this kills the dynamics, especially on vocals
this is why you think you are smart getting away with putting your FOH behind the mics, and that it's great to not need monitors

not trying to trash you bro but just thought you'd like to know. people do notice that stuff.

and btw, very dumb statement to tell guitarists to turn down their gain - gain on a guitar amp has a very different effect than gain on your mixing board. for live purposes? that makes no sense, you wouldn't need less gain live - you'd need less stage volume. that's master.

our immense sound destroys the ears of mortals who listen...therefore you can't hear how good it is

anonymous said:

Ianonymous, ahem, I mean anonymous, to be fair I have tried things many different ways with my set up, and I tried experimenting with it again after getting this advice from you the first time (because Cliff knows I'm certainly no expert sound engineer, just a musician who loves metal and cares about giving bands good sound). But turning up the power amp as much as I can without clipping, leaving the channel gains down, and using the sliders to do the mixing ultimately sounds the best with my set up every time, based on trial and error. In fact, turning up the power amp up all the way was originally suggested to me by an engineering professional who totally disagreed with me on other sonic matters (my guitar tone) and was not afraid to say so.

However, if I am running sound for a particular band (a- ahem) and they prefer me do to things a certain way, I am more than happy to break my own rules and do what they want. After all, when my band is playing through someone else's system, I want the soundguy to listen to me.


anonymous said:

Actually, when the guy who originally sold the gear to me said that I wouldn't need monitors because I could put the mains behind the band, I thought he was nuts. But once I started to mix my band (long before I mixed any other bands), I realized that we got optimum sound standing in front of the main PA speakers. Why?

Number one, we heard crystal clear compared to shows with monitor mixes, because unless both a monitor head and speakers are REALLY powerful, they're not going to give a band as clear a mix (The Webster Theatre is a HUGE place with monitors better than most venues, but when we play there my guitar has to be put through the monitors just loud enough, and not any louder, or the monitors start to fart because the monitor speakers can't handle it).

Number two: We hear what the crowd hears. As mentioned above, monitors can deceive you into say thinking your guitar is loud enough, and then people in the crowd tell you afterwards that they couldn't hear the guitar. In this case, there is no doubt.

(I'm not telling anyone else how to run sound in this post, nor am I telling anyone not to take your advice, just what in my opinion has worked for me with my gear. I respect your right to disagree.)

the thing is, you lose all of the dynamics of the vocals
it sounds muffled
bottom line

as far as the guitars? dont put them through the monitors, problem solved. use your amp for stage monitor, this is pretty normal practice.
monitors are generally a bit more for vocals.

the crowd certainly does not hear what you hear onstage. they have the drums overpowering things, the further distance between them and the speakers, the room geometry affecting things, etc. Also, to acheive anything close to a proper setup, one would not be mixing the show from the stage anyway, so technically the band shouldn't need to hear what the crowd hears.

now I don't know what the webster has but I'm willing to reckon that it's not the fault of their monitors, rather, it's that the guitar is run at such a low volume that what you're hearing is the amp clipping out, rather than the speaker farting. I honestly doubt such a large venue with regular touring acts would have sub-par monitors. Also generally monitors cut back a bit on the high end to eliminate feedback spots for mobile vocalists, and also you mentioned you cut back the presence quite a bit. So this would account for your lack of hearing it.

I mean, I applaud your effort, but, for fuck's sake there is a standard way of doing things for a reason: it works.

I agree with the last post. When musicians are using Stage Monitors to keep themselves in time with the rest of the band, the vocalist should be able to hear maybe a little kick drum(s), snare, HH, and maybe bass. The guitarists should hear themselves (unless the club is small to use their own stacks as reference monitors) as well as kick and snare.

"High End" (5-20Khz) does not cause feedback. The wavelength is far to small to cause that particular frequency to loop. More often then not, itll be looped bass (100hz-250, as well as mud Frequencies, like 400-800 hz) going from mains into mics, and back again. Vocalists usually cause feedback by cupping the mic, in the gay hardcore fashion.

And for the record, in medium venues, the stage monitor engineer does mix on the stage (using a seperate mixer with plenty of auxilary outputs, while the FOH mixing unit is directly infront of stage center.
Small clubs usually sound like total shit cuz the band doesnt know how to match there sound that would be pleasing to the ear. I know its hard, when the clubs have none to no monitors for the musicians, but, thats usually the way it is...

Ah my bad on the feedback, you are correct, where were my EE studies when I needed em. At least there is another competant sound tech on here.

And of course the engineer mixing the foldbacks is onstage. But in this case we're talking about a much different setup, not a proper venue setup like what you described here.

also, rather what I meant about high end was that most of the monitors I've seen designed to be used in small situations (i.e. no dedicated stage tech) were not completely full range in the high end, in my moment of weakness I mistakenly thought of the first thing I could think of that it might be attributed to, and that would be feedback control. But thanks for keeping me on my toes.

even big clubs suck when they have shitty sound guys (see Bill's Bar)

Sinistas said:

ha, yeah that guy sucked and he was a dick. what a suckdick.

I'd say I hope he gets AIDS, but I'm sure he's halfway there already